Its a good question. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. 15. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? Those would be irrelevant to the question. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. All right. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. I think it provides strong evidence for it. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. Thats good for me too. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. Thank you very much, Trent. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. Yes. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. You can get both of those on Amazon. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. For example, Denver seminary professor Joseph Dodson says, Scholars for at least three centuries have found value in comparing the deuterocanonical book of Wisdom and Romans (The Powers of Personification: Rhetorical Purpose in the Book of Wisdom and the Letter to the Romans). No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. Philosophy program at Talbot. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. But its still the first movie. No, it doesnt. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. The relevance would be that you are using it. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. The only son? Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. How would you treat that thing? Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Book now for free with CMG Booking. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Okay. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. So again, argument by exception. Yes. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. We ought to do it. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. Good day, Steve. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. I dont know. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. Okay. He became sin for us. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Thats all I wanted to say. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? Okay. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. . Oh, wow. This question comes from agoyforJesus. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? Check out our newest Lake Effect team. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. Thats right. Really enjoying this. Now Steve has said, Well, they were assumed into heaven alive and if Mary died, she would not be assumed into heaven. But thats not the case. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Trent models that approach each. . . I will click the four-minute mark. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. Okay. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? He was content to let go and die a natural death. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Trent, did you want to-. Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. I thought about writing a book on-. They would be sons from another marriage. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. Thanks for being a supporter mate. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. That sums it up. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. He says, Steve. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. So feel free to answer that briefly. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. Why was she shocked about the enunciation? I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Locals is a free speech platform. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. No. Sure. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. This is not a commitment to lend. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. She would have to have a heavenly body. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. That seems to be something that went without contention. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. Thats not true. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. Thank you, Steve. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. Protestants disagree. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Same with Matthew 28. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? Do it right now. Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. Well done. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. I dont know if I would. That she was conceived without original sin? Alright? . It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? We see this in Psalm 69:25. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. First person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology being mother of Jesus would make sense if is! 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